Oct 19, 2016: the 'Mars-Pluto Debate' of Clinton and Trump

Image: Walter Crane: The Fate of Persephone (1877); commons.wikimedia.org; {public domain}

As Election Day 2016 (November 8th) creeps up on us, one more 'debate' is set to take place Wednesday October 19, 2016 between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump in Las Vegas, Nevada (9:00 pm edt). Astrologically, it would be easy to suggest that Mars represents Mr. Trump with his Mars rising along with royal Regulus in egoistic Leo while powerful Pluto represents power player Hillary Clinton who is supported by big banks including the transnational banking syndicate now strangling the world.

And perhaps on some level things are that simple though I hasten to add that Mr. Trump is under the sway, or perhaps thumb, of the foreign banks he has habitually borrowed millions of dollars from. So who can say which planet signifies which candidate? Do they alternate on various levels or at different times? Meanwhile, some folks could say that what amounts to a political scare tactic--the Trump campaign--is being performed for a wider purpose than for Trump to sell books and scam money. It has been to persuade voters toward Mrs. Clinton, a candidate who would have had to limp to Election Day 2016 were it not for the huge, abominable circus act put on by Mr. Trump since June 2015.

Now, dear reader, I don't know where you stand on such issues especially since Stars Over Washington (11 years old this very day!) seldom receives comments or queries on the topics and viewpoints published here. Therefore, the Mars-Pluto encounter shall be allowed to debate for itself on Wednesday evening as Mars, planet of aggression, quarrels, and desire (and still OOBs), conjoins creepy Pluto (aka, Hades, kidnapping god of The Underworld), the puppeteer planet of power grabs, secret manipulation, and the dragon that guards hidden wealth @16 Capricorn.

Plus, as you know, the combo of Mars-Pluto, the 'might makes right' duo, is forceful to the point of brutality, assaults and attacks, chaos, mayhem...and rape. Ask Pluto's victim Persephone about such caddish behavior if you require a refresher concerning the myth. Or maybe it will suffice if Mr. Trump tells us more about his magnetic attraction to beautiful women and how he inappropriately and lustfully reacts very much like Hades toward Persephone.

Additionally, the intense pair of Mars and Pluto prominent on October 19th (in the sign of government, law, and business, Capricorn--the 'old goat') may also indicate that war veterans and/or disabled people may be mentioned during the debate which to some of us, oddly enough, includes the unprepared draft dodger, Donald Trump himself. Perhaps his previous mocking of a disabled reporter at one of his rallies will come up. What a man child! Or, at least, he plays one on TV.

And yet this election remains a 'granny vs grampy' affair with an alleged Global Government fighter on one fist and a shill for the New World Order on the other. Not much of a choice, is it? But I believe this has been the global corporate plan all along--to ruin our election process for good--and if their secret 'trade' deals are shoved into place (as they soon will be due to our own apathy), 2016 will be the end of our democracy and the last US presidential election the American public will ever have to groan through as US sovereignty is tossed into the dust bin of history and corporatism finally takes over the US Government completely.

If this turns out to be the case, will it matter very much who's playing mouthpiece in the White House when America's Great Seal turns over? Maybe, but I know whose voice overly grates upon the ear to be withstood for four long years.

Now if you've already consulted the Sabian Symbol for the Mars-Pluto conjunction degree of 16 Capricorn, you know that it pertains to the "maintenance of a healthy society" (Rudhyar). Sounds good but let us also consult Adriano Carelli's The 360 Degrees of the Zodiac:

16 Capricorn: "A man riding a reinless horse."

This degree and symbol, Carelli says, can produce "The Anointed One" and can indicate "faraway travels and independence." That's the positive side; the negative side points toward "sensuality" of a "carefree epicurean forgetful of the morrow," and "sportsmanship (that) will lead to horse racing.."...in other words, a reckless gambler which is how this particular Child of the Revolution must feel on behalf of our country if I should dare to vote for wrestling promoter Donald Trump.

And with that in mind, it seems that holding the last of the Clinton-Trump debates in risk-it-all Las Vegas suddenly makes some sort of perverted sense.

Related posts include: The Unaspected and Out-of-Bounds Planets of Donald Trump (hint: it's Pluto and Mercury for this bounder)...and for Hillary: A Woman Rises from the Ocean, a Seal Embraces Her.

Oct 19, 2016: Mars-Pluto Conjunction Hits New Millennium Chart

Here's a re-publish of the New Millennium Horoscope set for January 1, 2001 12:00 am est White House Washington DC. My primary concern is the October 19, 2016 Mars-Pluto conjunction which occurs upon the South Node at 15Cap31 in 4th house of Domestic Scene, Homeland, Foundation of the Matter. And of course, the 4th house is also about Roots, Endings, and The Drain.

Trump and Clinton, Clinton and Trump

Now if you follow politics and the 2016 Campaign, you know that October 19, 2016 is when the third and final presidential debate occurs between Republican nominee Donald Trump (who just may be represented by the Scorpio Mars leading all the planets in a Locomotive shape from the 2nd house of the National Treasury (US SP Jupiter Rx = money, corporatism, the politician, and The General)...or not, since perhaps it's Mrs. Clinton whose natal Sun is in early Scorpio, and both candidates have the executive ability a Locomotive shows).

Also, Democrat Hillary Clinton's natal Moon in Pisces is represented by the Moon in the New Millennium's 6th house of the Military, Police, and Civil Service (and Pisces = the server). Yet as always, her aggressive Mars-Saturn-Pluto trio in Leo 'runs in the background' of her political career and falls within the 11th house of this chart which to me suggests her neocon/war-hawk stance and the people and groups she associates (11th h) with who have similar goals of world domination.

And as you see, the New Millennium's difficult Mars-Saturn midpoint at 14Leo49 is also in 11th house and conjoins Mrs. Clinton's natal trio in Leo. In 3rd house you can see Mr. Trump's natal Moon-SN conjunction which conjoins the New Millennium's Chiron and this may signify the crises and wounds that many Americans intuit a Trump presidency would bring, and/or the 'blindspot' (Chiron) of some voters who have fallen for his promises of Making America Great Again.

Additionally, the detached and out-of-bounds Mercury at 14Cap36 conjoins the Saturnian, separative South Node in the chart which is a 'natal echo' of Clinton's Mercury-SN conjunction in Scorpio. Mercury-SN tends to have ideas ahead of its time and/or may signify past ideas and plans which here relate to the Pentagon since the 10th house North Node conjoins both the Pentagon's natal Ascendant and US SP (progressed) Jupiter Rx at 15Cancer--tragically describing America's past and future war path.

Now my assumption is and has been that the war costs of global conquest and other Pentagon programs (ex: black ops, invasion and occupation) have drained America's National Treasury and other resources, a condition hidden by our fiat money. So basically, the South-Node-Mars-Pluto condition indicates the US military chiefs falling back on past behavior (SN) and suggesting turbulent, possibly violent, events (Mars-Pluto) timed by the conjunction's Saturnian (Capricorn) hook-up with the New Millennium Nodal Axis of meetings, encounters, and past vs future direction...Mars-Pluto = SN.

Or, perhaps this is merely a cosmic picture of Campaign 2016 and the ruthless rivalry between our two political parties for control of the White House megaphone and our political discourse.

Now here are what I see as the stand-out planets in the New Millennium chart and why they are prominent:

1. Mars in Scorpio conjunct 2nd cusp because it leads all other planets via the chart's Locomotive shape and describes people with executive ability who command success;

2. 3rd house Pluto in Sagittarius (conjunct US Ascendant in the late-afternoon 'Sibly chart') because Mr. Underworld, planet of hidden wealth and criminality, is unaspected and therefore isolated from the rest of the planets (actors), a condition which denies them the benefit of plutonian regeneration;

3. Uranus in its own sign of Aquarius in the 5th house of Speculation, Gambling, and Creative Pursuits because Uranus is a reformer, a rebel, an anarchist, and a troublemaker and is the Final Dispositor of the entire chart since the 'trail of dispositorship' leads back to Uranus in Aquarius.

A Tragic Synchronicity?

Naturally there are many other chart factors of note than these but my main purpose today is to re-post the New Millennium Horoscope for you and remark upon the significance of the October 19th Mars-Pluto conjunction perfecting on the very day of the third and final presidential debate of 2016--and add that the Pre-Natal Solar Eclipse Series of the New Millennium (2 South on December 25, 2000 at 4Cap14) repeats during the last year of the presidential term of whoever is (s)elected on November 8, 2016--because 2 South manifests once again on January 5, 2019 at 15Capricorn25 which echoes and conjoins the 2016 Mars-Pluto conjunction.

Dec 24, 2008: day of US Progr'd Full Moon

This image is the transit chart for Dec 24, 2008, 11:45 pm est, Philadelphia, PA, which is the exact time of America's Secondary Progressed Full Moon (based on the US 'Sibly' chart, July 4, 1776 5:10 pm LMT.)

Secondary Progressed Full Moons are the end of a cycle which everyone's natal chart enjoys and which gives important info regarding relationships, goals and joint successes, and public life.

Not liking the looks of this chart am I, yet it may as well be faced with its Mars/Pluto opposition to Midheaven, *Sun/Atlantis conjunction, tr Jupiter conj US natal Pluto 27Cap33--a pair which is conj US Secondary (Sec) South Node (a point of separation, unconscious or neurotic behavior, talents, and/or past connections.)

An hour of Jupiter emphasizes the Jupiter-to-Pluto transit when resources and resourcefulness are increased as well as achievement of greater power and control unless negative factors interfere.

Evaluation and distribution of monetary assets and raw materials procede if all goes well although these assets seem to be mainly in the fatcat coffers already, if you're asking me. How greedy can plutocrats (Jupiter-Pluto) be? It's quite mindboggling, isn't it?

Dec 24's asteroid, Tisiphone (retaliation) is there with Jupiter and US n Pluto as well, and you see the 6/12 cusps are conj the Sec Full Moon's degrees...12th cusp = Sec Moon (4Vir10) and 6th cusp = Sec Sun (4Pis10.) The 6/12 house polarity with the Virgo/Pisces axis = the victim/savior axis, as you know.

So Virgoan health concerns and Piscean spiritual issues may be on the nation's front burner, along with the victimization of war and violence. And Pisces' link with Neptune brings oil and gas into the picture, as we may expect.

Quite worrisome is the pile-up at the Foundation Point of the chart--the HOW? Point, the Ic...so that warrior Mars (which is out-of-bounds and working on his own), nuclear Pluto, and the Sun (purpose, the leader in a national chart) affect the opposite point--Mc, the Goal/Aspiration/Public Status of the chart.

Mars/Pluto = Mc: ambition; self-confidence; facing overwhelming force without power; danger; dealing with might on either side of any issue; major job maneuver.

You see lesson-bringer Saturn in the karmic house of the Unconscious (12th) and readying to conj US natal Neptune in Virgo (exact 8.27.09.) Saturn to n Neptune is a disillusioning time of facing grim reality (so we have That to look forward to--within the presidential term of whomever gets the job, though why anyone would want it eludes me.)

Blogging time is brief so I'll temporarily close this post with the Sun Cap-Moon Sag details--this is an Earth-Fire combo indicating an ability to enlist others to action.

Earth-Fire blends are aka "the bulldozer" and may be described as volcanic molten lava which eventually forms new, fertile land.

Earth-Fire can deal with molten metal like a blacksmith (or a 'Vulcan'?) or as an engineer who shapes raw materials into serviceable tools (such as weaponry? see 'Jupiter to Pluto' above), plus, there's a dictatorial attitude and a certitude about beliefs which we've unfortunately seen in Washington before with ginned up pretexts for going to war...

Sun Cap-Moon Sag:

zealousness, practical idealism, and faith in values; alternately austere and humorous; hard-headed businessperson + visionary social reformer; high standards; charismatic and capable; forceful and powerful; ability to grasp facts and hold onto the vision; must 'get it right'; explorative; moody and impatient under too many demands; verbosity and pomposity; intellectual pretensions; energy may be wasted in a nervous seeking of new pastures; fixations on narrow views that are rigidly moralistic.

Images for Integration:

A bank clerk plans a world cruise...In his spare time, a High Court judge takes up the serious hobby of gambling at horse races. (Sun Sign-Moon Sign, Chas & Suzi Harvey.)

to be cont'd...


note: scroll just below to see the chart of America's Secondary Full Moon and for more details please visit:

Jude's Threshold where you'll find an entry dedicated to the subject on my sidebar list of Pages. You'll also find a new Page there...'Wedding Day Astrology: John and Elizabeth Edwards.'


* Atlantis can be a stand-in for America, the Atlantic Ocean, the myth of Atlantis, NASA's shuttle, but the asteroid has these keywords: where we feel doomed; abuse of power.

Cho Seung-Hui 1.18.84

Update July 25, 2009: Cho's medical files have been found and were 'accidentally' taken home by the doctor who once served at Cho's school. The records are said to have been packed up with other papers by Dr. Miller when he left the school's employ some 14 months prior to the shootings and were discovered by him only last week. #

Original post begins here:

It was not my intention to post Cho Seung-Hui's natal chart (or Seung-Hui Cho, if you prefer) but having a few requests for it I'm relenting.

If you click to enlarge, you'll see some chicken scratch notes I've made although there's not room around the chart for all the transiting planets for April 16, 2007, day of the Virginia Tech shootings.

I have relocated his natal chart to Blacksburg, VA which is a way of seeing how a location affects a person for I've not found the exact location of his birth in South Korea.

You see on the chart some T-square formations intepreted which are dependent upon the time (using sunrise)--ordinarily I might not mention them but they seem to apply to this melancholic, obsessive young man.

Cho's Pre-Natal Eclipse (PE) is in the 3 South (3S) Series and we find that Bernadette Brady, in her book, Predictive Astrology, gives this Series as:

sudden endings with an emotional component; traumatic transformations.

"His" Eclipse prior to birth occurred Dec 4, 1983--and again on Dec 14, 2001 at 22Sag56. As you know, tr Pluto has been at this degree several times of late, deepening the meaning of his PE. (Late 2001 and the first half of 2002 may be significant to his ongoing emotional traumas.)

Here are the midpoints of the T-squares - which involve his obsessive Mars/Pluto conjunction - in case you cannot read my scribbles on the chart, or in case you are not visiting SO'W in person:

Sun/Moon = Mars: drive for fulfillment; urge toward fruition; the desire for marriage;

Sun/Moon = Pluto: a soul torn by inner conflict; having a biased attitude; changed circumstances leading to separation from others;

Moon/ASC = Mars: temperamental upset at the slightest sense of frustration; moody; conflicts with women;

Moon/ASC = Pluto: over-dramatization or obsessive importance of relationships; personal relationship with tragic consequences.

On April 16, tr Ceres was conjunct tr Moon 11Ari28 (at 7:00 am edt), and testy Mars was conjunct natal Ceres (7Pis42.) Ceres, the Mother, relates to security issues, and I believe these conjs are significant due to some of Cho's natal PE and other factors such as:

Uranus conj SN: upset by changing social conditions including war, revolutions, and there's a determination to preserve traditional worthwhile values against the onslaught of fads and new social movements.

Mars conj Pluto: obsessive determination and willfulness toward goals which may be only a deep desire to prove to the self that the goal can be achieved, then it isn't desired anymore. There is an unflinching ability to face danger, even death. In a crisis the immense power of this conj can be contained until the right moment to act, then all the power of Mars/Pluto is unleashed.

The Mars/Pluto conj gives an awareness of social problems in the environment but the persuading ability becomes demanding and has a threatening quality to it which others avoid.

Jupiter conj Neptune: tends to do everything in excess. Much delusion follows a tendency to carelessly trust confidences given to others because there's an assumption that they are trustworthy. In love there is a deep desire to believe that the relationhip will lead to marriage and a spiritual understanding of social obligations is well-developed.

Cults, drugs, and charletans must be carefully avoided for there is an extreme idealism with this conjunction and a touchy emotionalism that leads to emotional disappointments.

Here are two natal midpoint pictures not dependent on birth time both of which involve lusty Venus, a planet of relationships and of values:

Sun/Saturn = Venus: suppressed feelings; lovesickness; reserve;

Uranus/Neptune = Venus: high sensitivity; reveling in love; active fantasy life; peculiar love.

As I've mentioned in a previous post, on April 16, tr Mars and tr Venus (conj tr Midas) were squared which is key to understanding Cho's actions (Mars) on that day...squares represent blockages or obstacles. This relates to the above-mentioned T-squares in his natal chart (sunrise) giving conflicts with women; relationship with tragic consequences.

Natally Cho's Moon is out-of-bounds so his emotions (Moon) were not well-integrated with the rest of the chart. There are other indications of melancholy and feelings of inferiority as well which I won't go into now and which possibly are related to his lack of eye contact mentioned by roommates.

His Sun-Moon combo is Sun Cap/Moon Cancer at sunrise, but later, on the day he was born, the Moon entered Leo.

The Sun Cap/Moon Leo seems to apply more to what we know of his personality as of yet so I'm giving that combo's Image:

After a lone, silent climb up your mountain you greet the spotlight and television cameras with flair and aplomb.

Cho was noted for his silence, yet, a Leo Moon has a reigning need for recognition and approval. The "spotlight" and tv cameras are an obvious, aren't they?

He had a lack of ego definition which often results paradoxically in an overweening egotism, and given his Mars/Pluto conj's need for control, his tendency toward lovesickness and reveling in love fantasies, and a deep sense of inferiority, I believe a spurning by the young lady in question was used by Cho to ignite his judgmental traits and obsessions. (Or perhaps it was a mind ocntrol issue?)

My hope is that this is all I will be posting on this young man, and my thoughts and prayers continue to be with the families and friends of the victims and with the Cho family who are under such a crushing burden.